Brenda 00:10
Hello and welcome to Kiss My Black Side with me, Brenda Emmanus. This is a celebratory look at art from a Black perspective.

In this show, we talk to some brilliantly talented creatives who have made their mark in the world of dance, film, fashion, music, theatre, and the visual arts. We discuss their work and inspiration, and then we get to do a little deep dive on issues related to their specific art form.

And as we’re talking, we figured it would be nice to end each programme with a specially commissioned Spoken-Word tribute to our chosen topic, which in this episode is theatre. This podcast is produced by Free Spirit Productions Ltd and brought to you by Sadler’s Wells. Sadler’s Wells is one of the world’s leading dance organisations. And in 2022 they’re celebrating work by Black dance artists with Well Seasoned, a year-long programme of live performances, dance films and more from Black choreographers, dancers, and artists of colour.

Now, exciting talent is exactly what we’re bringing you in this episode in the form of three brilliant theatre practitioners doing amazing, impactful work. First, we have Clint Dyer, who has the very fancy title of deputy artistic director at the National Theatre. He also wears other hats as a writer and actor across film, television and theatre.

My second guest has worked in theatre, festivals and the cultural sector for decades, so I know has a wealth of experiences to share. Stella Kanu is the executive director at Lift, London’s bi-annual International Festival of Theatre, which brings joyful, daring theatre from around the world to London using the whole of the city as its stage.

Last, but by no ways least, in my trio of theatre talent is the formidable Tinuke Craig. Brought up in Brixton, she joined the Royal Courts Young Writers Programme at the age of 17. She’s currently witnessing rave reviews at the Old Vic Theatre for her staging of Jitney, the first work and the great August Wilson’s ten play cycle detailing Black life in each decade of the 20th century.
A Kiss My Black Side special welcome to you all.

02:31
[Music]

Brenda 02:39
So, Clint, I’m going to start with you. And it must feel like great progress for Black practitioners to see a Black man as a deputy artistic director, one of the world’s most revered theatre establishments. How did you feel when the offer came your way?

Clint 2:53
I’m flattered. I think that would be my first response. Extraordinarily flattered. I also felt rather confused because it hasn’t been something that I’ve, I’ve chased and, management wasn’t really on my agenda. I really only wanted to create for and obviously for the last 30 years I’ve been just acting, writing and directing. So, in the main, I should say I have done little pieces of associate stuff at Theatre Royal Stratford East and the Phillip Hedley, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t as full time as this and all encompassing as this. And I kind of had an experience of what running a theatre would be like. So how did I feel? Trapped. Caught. No, no I felt honoured and flattered, honoured all those things and concerned and worried as anyone would be as to whether I could actually do it. Yeah.

Brenda 03:59
Now I know for you Stella, leadership and Black people in leadership roles in the arts is something that I know you’re constantly trying to champion. Do you feel with optimism by what you’re seeing? What’s your feeling of where we are at?

Stella 04:12
I mean, yes, there’s reasons to be optimistic and there are some nuances within that. I think what has been really joyful for me over the last few years has been, you know, going and seeing work that is like, wow, I’m actually seeing stuff that really absolutely could relate to my nephew or my mum or my uncle. That is amazing.

It’s amazing every time there’s a new announcement and Clint, even though, you know, we don’t know each other very well, on social media I’ve bombarded you with congratulations. That’s the kind of way we’re connecting and that energy. And that’s really lovely. But, I think the optimism and the focus on venue leadership in particular is happening alongside, complementary, alongside loads of other spaces that are growing.

You know, we know that in terms of the work on stage, we know that even in terms of the movement around environmentalism and this will kind of push within the sector to be delivering that work. We’re seeing that there are some Black voices within there as well. And then when you move towards administration, like executive directors, like myself, producers, that is all exploding at the same time.

And I think that, that’s really exciting because it’s kind of, it’s kind of showing what is possible. But I think what Clint was just saying about the backdrop of that is that we’ve been here before and it’s part of a longer evolution, but we also can be fully aware of some pitfalls or some things that might not grow.

You know, like every garden, some things grown, something don’t, some seasons are terrible. And, but I also think that the bigger backdrop, if we look at the sector within kind of like a kind of human landscape, there is a real shift and there has been over the last few years away from the kind of what I like to call brain leadership, you know, the very old fashioned style of leadership and what all the leadership that’s happening on every single level offers us is an opportunity to kind of break down the hierarchies that have existed over time and time and time again in the systems that have kind of been created because of that.

So, I think that there’s something of a move towards heart leadership that we’re all hoping is represented in the changes that we’re seeing that could have much, much longer term influences and impact. And that’s the optimism for me, is really at that end point of going okay, if I’m in my 70th year, what are the things I think I can see based on the seeds and the fruits that are happening right now? And that excites me, but I think is still a long way to go and as Clint said, it’s evolving.

Brenda 06:56
So, if we are moving towards heart leadership, as you put it, do you think there is a genuine appetite for Black creatives at all levels of the theatre industry, or do you still see it still slightly tokenistic or post George Floyd or the right thing to do?

Stella 07:08
I mean, I genuinely think that the appetite and the intention is real. What’s the, what’s the drivers? Those are the things that need interrogating because they talk a bit more about the end point that people want to get to. And that’s sometimes where the dehumanisation comes into play so that we become the, we become products. We become something that can produce, that can, and that’s too close to labour to me, that is just too close then to some other historical experiences.

And so, I think that there’s, I think the intention is, definitely, definitely real. I’m not, I’m not in any way, shape or form thinking that that isn’t the case. But I do think there are nuances there again. And because, as you know, I’m in a similar space in terms of thinking about the history of particularly the theatre sector.

And if you go back to, you know, the seventies where there’s this massive explosion of multiculturalism and community arts that really began in kind of Black and Brown spaces and to the Black arts movement of the eighties to the nineties where there was the Black dance and development trust and all of that kind of explosion that kind of really got us to focus on creativity and spawned some administrators who are still part of this kind of leadership explosion that we’re talking about now.

That kind of landscape was on the back of an appetite, but actually its intentions are what we’re interrogating right now. So, I think there is definitely some tokenism in there, as you highlighted, there are all of those things. But I think that the environment that we’re in is so different in lots of ways that I think some of those things might fall by the wayside.

And there may be new challenges that come to play. And, you know, for me, some of that is in, you know, the people that are fulfilling the massive appetite at the moment, what’s their experience? How are they, what new things are they, kind of challenges, are they coming across that we haven’t seen before? Because, you know, now we’re focussing on wellbeing and mental health and we’re examining the microaggressions that before we might have put in our pocket and just got on with it.

But now we’re examining everything. We’ve moved from being the confessional generations to being the generations that are going “What’s the political implication of this?”. And so, I think there are some challenges in in the space for both Black artists, creatives, administrators, leaders, and, and the white kind of custodians and stewards that are kind of also stirring the enthusiasm.

Brenda 09:49
Now you’re talking about experiences and I want to ask Tinu about her experience, because you’re there at the moment enjoying great reviews for Jitney, which is brilliant. I mean, I was just blown away when I saw it. But Jitney is very much about, which your directing, it’s very much about place and community. So, I just wondered how you navigated your place in the theatre community and what your experiences have been?

Tinu 10:10
Yeah, I think it’s um, how have I navigated my place in the community? It’s a great question. I think for me, I suppose I’ve always known what I wanted to do or why or what, rather why I wanted to do it, I suppose. And I’ve always known what my line of enquiry was as an artist, and that’s meant that I’ve sort of known kind of creatively, kind of what my place might be or what the kind of work is that I might be interested in, where, what that gap might be.

But in terms of finding a kind of position within the wider community, that becomes a little bit more complicated for all the reasons that Stella’s talked about so beautifully. You know, there’s a, I feel like I might be part of a generation of directors where there are quite a few, like I can name quite a few of my peers who are Black and I can name more of my peers who are of Colour very easily.

And so, there’s a sort of sense that, you know, when we talk about how things changed, I think, you know, sort of my name or Roy Alexander Weise’s name or Lynette Linton’s name or Ola Ince’s name probably gets reeled off relatively quickly in order to say, well, look, it’s it’s better now see that the change has clearly worked. But actually, for kind of trying to navigate through that position, you’re still in a position where you, I find myself sometimes the worry I have is that our generation of directors therefore have to kind of be the, the kind of native informants of that.

We have to be the kind of messengers and the kind of vessels for that work and that we, you know, we ought to know more about it than anybody else, and we must be the people who can enlighten other people and kind of call theatre audiences to our experience, through our very specific role that we might play within the world, which I’m actually very happy to do because I’m passionate about who I am, where I’m from, and my community and my culture, but at the same time it can get in the way of the artistry content, it can get in the way of just being able to do the thing you want to do because you have this extra burden of responsibility and the sense that you have taken up a space and that there aren’t many spaces for you and people who look like you, and so if you’re going to have a space, you better nail it because you’re doing that for the people as well as yourself. There’s a there’s an additional pressure, I think, that comes with that that doesn’t necessarily mean that I don’t feel I have a place in the community. I think I do, and I think I’ve found that largely amongst other Black artists, but it is a slightly more loaded space than it might be for some of my White peers. I mean, I’m sure they would, they might say something different, but I suppose my my perspective of it would be that.

Brenda 12:20
And how do you cope with that pressure? Do you, because I remember speaking to the likes of Spike Lee about responsibility as a creative? I remember as a Black presenter and the correspondent over the last 20 years, you feel it because you’re one of the few, you do feel this sense of responsibility, you know, for me it was Moira Stewart and Trever Mcdonald and if I hadn’t seen them then maybe I wouldn’t have seen it as possible. So, when people see you, you, they, ah, you know, you suddenly realise there’s a possibility. But that can put a tremendous pressure on you.

Tinu 12:47
I think it can. I think it can. And it also puts a pressure on you from the wider community and maybe more especially the white community, but also pressure even within your own community, because you know that you are responsible for representing people in a way that feels true and real and respectable and respectful. And that I think, I’m very happy to do that.

But it does, it does become an additional thing that you’re having to think about or a burden that you’re having to bear. And it’s and I think the danger there also is that it takes Black artists, Black creatives, and it turns them into a monolith, as if we would all think the same thing and have the same experiences and want to tell the same stories about the same things.

It doesn’t really take into account gender and class and sexuality and ability or disability or neurodivergent, and all the other intersections that you might examine. You become a sort of Black artist, and that’s your lane. And I think that pressure can feel, I suppose the reason that I find that pressure to be unhelpful is that apart from anything else, it feels uncreative and I want to be creative more than I want to be anything else.

Brenda 13:49
So, speaking of the creativity and the work itself, the content itself, how do we go about and how important is it, we’ve now brought Jitney to light again of the great playwright August Wilson, there is so much great work around which we want to preserve and unless you’re in the position where you can say, How about we should be doing this?

How important do you think it is that we preserve this great work and how do we go about doing that if we don’t own the Theatre spaces, we don’t make all the decisions. How do we address such balances and what can be done about it?

Tinu 14:18
I think it’s crucial that we preserve the work, partly because I think what, what I was really excited about when I first discovered August Wilson, a part of that discovery was seeing Clint in Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom, actually. So here we are. But I think there’s something of the discovery that there might be a Black canon and there might be a sort of literary history that you are a part of, I think is really exciting as an artist, but also I think it’s really affirming as a human to know that you are part of the cultural history, that the artform that you care so deeply about includes you and has always included you, actually. I think is really empowering, really exciting and allows you to look at the sort of the artform differently, which I think for me is really empowering.

How we, how we do that in these spaces I suppose, well partly it’s about what we’ve been talking about a little bit, which is allowing. I say allowing, it’s the completely the wrong word. Finding ways and pathways that Black people might be able to be the heads of these cultural institutions so that the Black canon is something that feels more exciting and prominent in that person’s mind. So, that it isn’t a freelancer coming up to the Artistic Director and actually going, Hey, I’ve got this thing, have you heard of it? Can I convince you to do it? It’s also just the artistic directors themselves going, this is the kind of stuff that we really care about.

This is the kind of stuff we really want to do, that feels crucial and important. And I also wonder if it’s also about allowing us to think about, for example, with Wilson, I think allow us to think about Wilson as just a great classic and let it, and let him sit where he ought to sit alongside Eugene O’Neill and Tennessee Williams and Chekhov and all the other great playwrights that we talk about with the language that we use about Wilson. Without going, Oh, but this is niche and this is specific, and this is only for some people and not for others. Because in doing so, I think there’s this great glory in being part of something specifically Black. But the danger, I think, in terms of how we market these things is that they become niche and then when they become niche, they become disempowered. And that’s a shame when you’ve got work like that.

Brenda 16:07
So, um, Clint, as well as these classics is, it’s also equally important that we have new work which drives new audiences to the establishments which you are climbing up the ladder. How important do you think it is to get diverse audiences into spaces like The Old Vic, spaces like the National Theatre, Clint?

Clint 16:24
Well, as far as my directing goes, it’s only new work that I’ve done. And, and the reason for doing new work is to get new audiences. The reason I’m in this position at the National right now is because of Death of England: Delroy and Death of England: Face to Face, all being new work, you know. They regard it, we regard it at the National as, as paramount to trying to gain new audiences, to be able to push through the barriers that Theatre can sometimes put up.

Brenda 17:01
Now I want to talk about a moment which you know where somebody really did get to do what they wanted to do. And it was, I mean, as a broadcaster, I have seen and I think theatre has been more progressive than film and other arts genre, in moving things forward. I’ve always felt that I think you’ve got that space, I think place at the Royal Court have allowed that and it’s been exciting to see. But I’ll never forget going to the Globe Theatre and seeing what Stella had done and seeing the Globe in a way I’ve never seen it before. Do you want to share what that was about Stella and why you did it?

Stella 17:32
Yeah, I mean, I think it is still one of my pleasures that I can easily conjure up the image and we’ve got a photo to show it. And it is a beautiful moment. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it kind of started, there’s a bit of a journey to how we got to that photo I guess in a way, but initially back in 2018, I’d been as executive producer at Ovalhouse Theatre and using my kind of judgement to find the best kind of candidates, ended up with what I think might still be massive anomalies in other organisations, with five Black women working in one theatre.

Because often what happens is we’re kind of dotted around, you know, and we’re in one, we might be in one organisation and talk to each other outside but being in an organisation where we were communicating and creating work together.

It came out of conversations where we were talking about the challenges that we were finding and talking about them regularly and getting upset often about what we were experiencing within those buildings, within the relationships we’re trying to build professionally, within the work that was being programmed.

And it led to these kind of conversations where we were like, let’s just get some Black women together and talk and let’s do that with an energy of celebration. Let’s because, you know, I was a little bit older than some of these things. I really didn’t like the intro that talked about me being around for decades and decades. I am 19!

Brenda 19:08
Me too, then.

Stella 19:11
My very early gestation period of living.

Brenda 19:13
You were just a precocious talent too.

Stella 19:17
I kind of like, you know, I kind of lived at the tail end of some of the kind of decades I was talking about. And I kind of remembered them because I thought that that’s what I would meet when I was able to. And yeah, I got to the position of being, you know, an emerging leader and all of those kind of things that disappeared.

But I knew people, I knew I remembered figures because you would catch people and remember them. So, I was sharing that a lot with this up and coming generation. And they were sharing with me also, you know, new talent, but also, you know, what their issues and concerns were and how the game was slightly shifting. And so, we set up Black women in theatre events.

There were three events that we held throughout 2018 and 2019 and those networking events just exploded. I mean, we just had women coming from all over the UK just to be in a safe space with other Black women talking about celebration, their journeys, things that were important to them, what they wanted to see, we did a lot of future gazing.

And we invited people like Winsome Pinnock, Ola Ince had come, Lynette Linton, Judith Jacobs, loads of people, this intergenerational mixed space to talk and to just share stories. And, and then we wanted to kind of, I really have this thing about where the conversation currently begins around diversity and inclusion and equity, which is all about statistics and numbers and all about the lack of and yet here we were, programming these events that was attracting the statistics in one space and there was something really powerful about that and not as a reason to kind of diffuse that “Oh, there were only 4% in this place. They’re only 1%”. But what I realised was really challenging is that we were buying into the statistics game as a people and not seeing each other past and present and not seeing the voluminousness of our kind of contribution to theatre, the theatre sector, to the art sector, to culture.

And so, I wanted to make that visual, because I just felt, I felt the power in that room. Everyone felt the power in that room when you know, there might have been 60 of us in the space, but the energy that was driven in there, I really wanted to capture that. And I’ve been doing a couple of panel discussions at the Globe and talking with, talking with them about, you know, race in Shakespeare and blind casting and all these kind of things.

And I thought, okay, they’ve had some challenges internally and they’re trying to make some corrections. Let me just see if they can put their money where their mouth is. So, I kind of just propositioned them in a really short phone call that just said, this is what we want to do. We want to get loads of women to come down and we want to occupy the Globe.

Because you remember, I was just talking about how often we’re in organisations, singular. So that isolation is really, really keenly felt and, and, and you know, when we go into these buildings, we don’t own them, we don’t suddenly own them. Even if you’re in a leadership position, let me tell you, you don’t start owning the building. And so, there was this conversation that was brewing about we want to be able to occupy spaces, a space where we’re not considered to be.

So, the Globe was it and so we then, kind of did this real secret campaign by sending out individual invitations to people who were in our networks, because we also wanted to keep it quiet, and we thought we would have 100 women turn up. But it kind of grew and grew and grew. And secretly, over six weeks we were communicating, I was working with the Globe to figure out how we were going to have one, we had one, they gave us a one hour slot in between, I can’t remember. Might have been Measure for Measure, I can’t remember what um, piece was on in that in that period, but they said they’re going to come off stage at five and they’re having a short break and then coming back on at six. You’ve got one hour to get everyone in, take the photo and come off again.

Brenda 23:36
But can you explain to them, to Tinu and to Clint what you were trying to recreate that, that classic Harlem photograph?

Stella 23:45
Yeah. I mean, there is a history, isn’t there in the kind of Black creativity of a series of moments that are visual representations of where something is and I guess I managed to trace it back to Black Wall Street, actually. I found an image of eleven, it might have been nine, nine or eleven, early investors in Black Wall Street in that area who set up the first Black bank and I think it was in 1913.

I’m getting my numbers mixed up. It might be 1911, early 19th century. And they’ve taken this sepia photo of the founders and so that’s the kind of origin. And then you’ve got the kind of the great day in the great day of Harlem, which is the Jazz musicians of the age who took the photo.

So, you’ve got in the nineties the great day of hip hop where all of the hip hop artists took one. I think in Manhattan, maybe Brooklyn, actually, where they had 77 hip hop artists take a photo. You’ve had in 2018, the Netflix creatives and back of House taking another photo. And for me this was a continuation of that by saying actually we in the theatre and cultural sector are presenting in the same way. And I do always say this, the numbers kind of grow, but there is none of those photos there is as many as 250.

Brenda 25:13
I’ve got to say, it was the most incredible place to be at that time. It is embedded like cement in my memory, (Stella: Do you remember?)it was absolutely, the energy was something else and I felt like I was an intruder because I was a journalist and a broadcaster.

Stella 25:27
I remember looking at the, I stood up on the stairs and looked down because I wanted to remember it and I just couldn’t believe it’d happened, and we’ve made it happen because it was absolutely. The sound of everyone’s chatter and people meeting each other and we encouraged people to make connections and it was just yeah, it was really something.

Clint 25:48
Sorry to jump in. Yeah, no, funny enough, there was another one. There was actually another one the Giles Terera organised at the National that I was in and that was about six, seven years ago. I have a wonderful picture with us all sitting on the Olivier stage, and we did readings, etc. But anyway, my point I’m trying to really make is that there was a lot of people there, but it was nowhere near 250. So, I congratulate you. I salute you. In fact.

Brenda 26:22
Tinu, what does it feel like to you? You’re of a different generation. Do you feel that, you know, I know we’re running out of time, but do you feel Tinu, that you now have agency that you can say, I want to do this, and you’ll be given licence to do it?

Tinu 26:34
I think I certainly feel like I’ve got er,agency to say it, to say it. Whether or not, whether or not people will let me is, is quite another matter. But I suppose I’m lucky to be part of a generation that has got models and role models and have seen versions of what it might be like or how you might go about achieving these things.

It does feel like um, I mean, it feels like there’s a there’s a wind blowing and there’s a change happening. But it doesn’t feel like I don’t think I’m in a position to sit and go, . It’s all sorted, now me and my mates, we could just do what the hell we want, you know? And you know, like I said, I said, you know, there’s an appetite at the moment, but the appetite, you know, comes from places it doesn’t always feel comfortable.

You know, you’re aware that sometimes the, the interest in you doesn’t necessarily… It feels precarious. You know, in some ways I think I’m a child, I’m a child of the nineties. And so I was, I grew up around about the time with loads of schemes. And if there hadn’t been loads of schemes, I don’t think I’d be doing this.

Kids who are nine now are not going to the free drama clubs I got to go to when I was nine. There’s a whole system in place that creates the artist, that allows the artist to get to where they need to get to. And if that system is being dismantled, we can’t relax, is what I would say.
So, whilst I’m so happy to be doing the work that I’m doing, it’s, we can’t chill out.

Brenda 27:47
We’re so glad you’re doing the work you’re doing. In fact, we’re glad you’re all doing the work that you’re doing. I want to play my ‘pass the baton’ game with you, and I’d like each of you to tell me about somebody that you would like to, in essence, pass the baton to. You’d like to celebrate either from the past or you currently feel is worth worthy of attention. Tinu?

Tinu 28:06
There’s a playwright called Dipo Baruwa Etti, who I saw his show at the Yard, An Unfinished Man a while ago, and I’ve read a few of his, drafts of his work. And I think he writes so specifically about the kind of intersections of the Black experience and these sorts of corners that are less examined and things that feel epic and theatrical and of the art form and also really, really kind of laser in on something that feels particular and important and undiscovered. He’s, he’s an artist I’m really excited about.

Brenda 28:35
So, Clint, if you agree, Let’s see if Tinu agrees with your choice.

Clint 28:39
My choice would be Lynnette Linton. I think she’s incredible. I think she’s a force of nature. I think her work has been outstanding and her taste, and her choices are to be heralded. And yeah, I’d love to, to feel like if anyway there was that I could be a part of that rise, I would be. And so, if this podcast can help her future, I’m glad that I’m doing it here and now. Yeah, no, she’s great. I’d love to pass the baton on to her.

Brenda 29:16
Stella.

Stella 29:17
I think for me also, because I have a different vantage point that isn’t necessarily artistic, and I would hate to miss out anyone. I think for me I can answer this in a way that feels authentic, which is I am often on the lookout for different types of people and you know, who can have different kind of functions, who are really inspiring.

For me, that is what I like to call tender warriors, people who are kind of leading by the heart, you know, they’re not leading, you know, they’re leading themselves by their own heart. But they’re also, you know, they have a sensibility enough to not fight like a brawler, fight like a warrior, you know, with skill. You know, someone who can fight you in the silence, fight you quietly, fight you with precision.

Because I think, you know, that’s, there’s something about the combination of those two things that is really interesting to me. And I identify with and I’m so, and I often think that often the outsider sensibility and so I’m often on the lookout for tender warriors who I think are going to be the new, you know.

In 50 years time, they will be the ones leading organisations and working in a completely different way. And leading our sector in some, in some way because I think there are a whole new set of challenges that are coming that will require both of those things, people who can be in the softness but you know, slice and dice in a second.

Brenda 30:44
This has been truly inspiring. I want to thank you, all three of you for this really engaging, can I call it a thespian exchange? Are we allowed to say thespian exchange?

Tinu 30:55
Yeah let’s.

Clint 30:57
You can say it if you like.

Brenda 30:57
It’s been a gas. Thank you all so much.

Brenda 31:01
We’re going to end the programme with an especially commissioned spoken word contribution to theatre and I’d like to say a big thank you to flow artist, Natalie Stewart, from the FLO Spoken Word Vortex. This poem is called Stage and it’s by Mr. I Am Jones. Enjoy everyone and join us again for Kiss My Black Side.

[music] 31:20

POEM 31:35

Brenda 32:22
Kiss My Black Side is a Sadler’s Wells production.