Brenda 00:07
Hello and welcome to Kiss My Black Side with me, Brenda Emmanus. This is a celebratory look at art from a black perspective.

In this show, we talk to some brilliantly talented creatives who have made their mark in the world of dance, film, fashion, music, theatre, and the visual arts. We discuss their work and inspiration, and then we get to do a little deep dive on issues related to this specific artform.

And as we’re talking, we figured it would be nice to end each programme with a specially commissioned Spoken-Word tribute to our chosen topic, which in this episode is music. This podcast is produced by Free Spirit Productions Ltd and brought to you by Sadler’s Wells. Sadler’s Wells is one of the world’s leading dance organisations. And in 2022 they’re celebrating work by Black dance artists with Well Seasoned, a year-long programme of live performances, dance films and more from Black choreographers, dancers, and artists of colour.

Well, insightful conversations with formidable creative talent is what we’re all about in this podcast series and in this edition, we’re in the company of two awesome women in music from different sides of the musical spectrum, but who I know have a lot in common.

Our first guest is the multi-award winning pop star Emeli Sandé. Born and raised in Scotland, her unique voice and eclectic musical taste has seen her embraced by both mainstream and urban audiences. Constantly evolving as a woman and an artist, her latest album is probably Emeli at her most confident and authentic.

Our other guest is someone I’ve admired, not just for the power of her vocal chords. Nadine Benjamin is an award winning opera soprano who has performed as a soloist at the English National Opera, Glyndebourne, the Royal Opera House and Opera de Lille, to name a few. Nadine is also a certified coach and was the founder of Opera in Colour, showcasing diversity in opera.

She’s also the founder of Everyone Can, a mentoring scheme supporting others in building their dreams. So much to talk about at Kiss My Black Side. Welcome to you both.

02:21
[MUSIC]

Brenda 02:31
Now Emeli, I’m pretty sure we’re grabbing you when you’re exhausted because you’re just ending a tour. Is that correct?

Emeli 02:37
Yes. I’ve just come off tour. We, we just finished The Brighter Days tour, which is, you know, for the new album, Let’s Say, for Instance. And it was a wonderful time. It was the first time I’d tried different things and sang just with a piano. So, tired, but I feel very proud of the tour. It was really nice to reconnect.

Brenda 02:57
I’ve said that I think this album finds your most confident and most, most authentic. Am I telling the truth?

Emeli 03:05
Yeah, I’d say. I’d say so. I mean, I definitely feel my most confident and truthful, you know, personally. I think that just reflects in the music, hopefully and it’s the most independent process I’ve ever had. And I think that’s allowed me to truly be myself and just make decisions based on instinct.

Brenda 03:23
Now you’re in the music business. How much does the business side of the music industry get in the way of the creative process?

Emeli 03:32
I mean, hugely because and that’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot actually, because you are stepping into a business which is, you know, attempting to contain and present something which has nothing to do with business. You know, it’s music, it’s your soul, it’s emotions. But, you know, they need to work hand in hand for it to be successful, you know, to, to reach the people that you intend to reach.

But it does get in the way at some points, but I guess you just try and minimise that as much as possible.

Brenda 04:01
Is the performing side the bit that you really enjoy the most?

Emeli 04:07
It’s difficult. I really need to split my year. Like six months in the studio is perfect. I love being in hibernation. I love being in that very vulnerable state where you’re pulling in these ideas and trying to channel something beautiful. But then after a while you start to think am I just doing this in vain, you know? Isn’t there a reason to do this?

Am I not doing it for people. And then that’s when it’s so amazing to get on stage and feel the adrenaline of performance and, and really see real people, because until you get out there, you know, it’s essentially just numbers. So, when you actually see these are human beings, souls, and through this music we’re connecting for this incredible night. So, I think I need both, because obviously when you perform too much, you can burn yourself out. So, I think you need a balance.

Brenda 04:52
Now, Nadine, having seen you perform, I just know how much you relished that side of the business. But I also love your stories. Share with us, how does a young woman from South London, bought up by a single parent, in Brixton, find her way to opera?

Nadine 05:09
Erm, sheer determination and light as Emeli will know herself. You know, this kind of artistic world is about sharing one soul. And I think the more we get into this process of sharing one soul, you get more and more courageous. It gets more and more authentic. So, I suppose when I first started, it was just, it was like I had this calling and it was asking me to share a gift that only I can share because I believe that everybody has a gift and each person’s gift is only what they can share, not what everybody else can share.

And I had, I just had this calling in my heart, was brought up in the church as well. So, I just had this calling in my heart that I had to sing. I had to heal with my voice. It had to be a part of the process of what I did in life. And then I ended up in working in the corporate world and in the banking world and totally loving that.

But again, the calling kept coming back, like, get to your work, your actual work, and, and then to that, you know, led me into singing opera. And, you know, that nugget was left by a singing, a music teacher at school called Mrs. Lake, and she had planted that seed from when I left secondary school and it just grew in me. I didn’t go to a conservatoire or anything, but I just had this natural passion and natural talent to sing.

Brenda 06:32
Now you’re someone who, as well as being a brilliant performer, helps other people find their dreams, in terms of your coaching. I mean, I know how good you are because I’ve had the benefit of, of your great work. But it wasn’t always that easy, was it? There was resistance and not everybody believed that a Black woman like you should be in opera, would they?

Nadine 06:53
No. And I think, you know, it’s, it’s, that has been a journey in itself because I believe that that initially played on my self-esteem of how I believed that I could show up in the world. And, oh, my God, it’s been nearly 22 years now since I trained as an NLP coach. When I think back on it, it’s like 22 years ago, but then most recent, about in the last ten years I qualified as a certified high performance coach.

And then really recently in the last year, I’ve certified as a physical intelligence coach. And for me, I needed all of those things to help transform my own life. And it hasn’t been until the last kind of, I don’t know, five, six years that I’ve really, felt really, again, strongly about sharing that side of myself, that empowerment. I’m all about empowerment.

I call myself the queen of empowerment. I love seeing people do well. That makes me, gives me so much joy. So, I love sharing that side of them. And I think empowerment goes into a kind of five or six sections. It’s about your spiritual empowerment, it’s about your physical empowerment. It’s about your emotional empowerment. Your spiritual empowerment, your social empowerment and you know, your relational empowerment.

So, it’s all those sections, and I think we go into those, and those, those quadrants at different times of our lives and we have to search them out and really work on them. And then we move on to the next one. And that’s how the journey of my life has been over the last 22 years. And I feel that that’s given me my strength.

Brenda 08:25
The speaking of calling because Emeli, if you’d followed your first path, you studied clinical medicine specialising in neuroscience. So, you could have gone a completely different path. So how did you navigate and how did you get over the resistance of anybody telling you, you couldn’t do it and find yourself in music and then choose what style of musician you wanted to be?

Emeli 08:45
Well, you know, everything Nadine was saying there really resonates because it really is that, you know, you know you have this thing within you that you need to share. And it was really against my character completely. I was a very shy kid you know, I found it very difficult to talk to anybody, to communicate, to express who I was. But music gave me this, you know, expression and this voice and this power, which really, I knew was a gift that I wanted to share and I had this longing to sing in front of lots of people, even though talking to one person was difficult. There’s this message or something that I knew I had to do and really wanted to do. And, you know, but then you have parents, I’m in this tiny Scottish village and a dream of becoming, you know, a pop star in London is quite far fetched.

So, everybody wants you to be sensible. And obviously, you know, school was big in our house. So, and that’s the safer route. You know, you maybe it’s a little bit harder. You study the exams, you pass, and that gives you a career and, and I think I was in split mind, but I always knew deep within, as Nadine was saying, that music was what I was supposed to be doing.

But I always felt like I needed this fallback, well not fallback plan because I did love medicine, but I needed the security of it. And it really wasn’t until I was releasing my third album where I didn’t feel split because I hated feeling not, that I wasn’t giving 100% of myself to either of the decisions. So, it was really after the third album where I really felt like, okay, I’m a musician and I can finally say that and accept that within myself.

Brenda 10:18
Now music has given you a very successful career, but it’s also helped you as a Black woman discover who you are, hasn’t it?

Emeli 10:25
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, music really was my educator as a kid. I didn’t really have many Black women to look up to, to really teach me about what it means to be a Black woman or just, you know, even things like how to do your hair, all of those things. I was really learning myself, up in Scotland and that’s what I loved about music, hearing Nina Simone for the first time, Lauryn Hill, Jill Scott.

I was really learning what it meant to be a Black woman through music. And then also my dad is from Zambia. So, hearing music from his homeland, you feel something within your soul that brings you home even though you’re across the world.

Brenda 11:04
Now Nadine, being a Black woman in opera, especially when you started, must have felt a bit like the road less travelled. I know things have changed and I’ve seen some amazing talent come behind you, but you set up Opera in Colour. Tell us a bit about that.

Nadine 11:18
Oh, so the actual, it was originally called Opera in Colour, but it’s now called Everybody Can and it’s an Everybody Can mentor scheme and opera company. And I set it up because many of the greats in in our lives you know, had mentors. They had people who were at their backs and by their sides. And they really wish to share that part of themselves with somebody who was coming up.

And what I noticed for me in the Opera world was that wasn’t available, it just wasn’t available. And I realised if I believed in it and you know, I’m sure all of us here will agree, if you wish to lead, you have to go first. So, I was like, well, what have I got that I can offer. Well, I’ve got all my corporate side of myself I could offer, and I had already trained as an NLP person and I thought, Let’s share that.

I can share that. And then in time I will get all the information I need to support my journey as a, as a soprano. And so, I just felt it was really important to give back. And then the opera company, you know, somebody said to me, I’d never played Desdemona in Othello. And, you know, I remember it quite clearly.

She said, you’ll never play it because you’re Black. You know, and there are stories about a Black man who hurts a Black woman or a white woman, and duh duh duh. And I was like, actually, no, it’s a story, actually, about post-traumatic stress and domestic violence, you know? And, you know, when we go into the humanity of the story, we, it can be played by any colour.

So, I was just like, actually, I’m going to put on Othello and I’m going to play Desdemona, just to make my point. You know and that’s exactly what we did. And we are this year doing, Norma, in on the 9th of November. And that’s going to be at St James’s in Piccadilly. And we’re really looking forward. So that’d be our third production in the last, kind of seven years.

Brenda 13:17
That’s absolutely brilliant. It really is inspiring. But I mean, there’s so much good news and watching particularly women like you both in music, it would make you think that things are rosy. But late last year, Black Lives in Music, they did a deep dive and research, and they found that there is still systemic racism in the music industry and Black women in particular were disproportionately affected.

What’s been both your experiences in terms of racism, be it microaggressions, be it glass ceilings, being told that you can’t do this kind of music because.

Emeli 13:48
Yeah, I think all systemic racism is so difficult to put your finger on when it’s happening, but you feel it is happening. I think there’s, there’s often an atmosphere in which you do find yourself being the only person of colour there, and this kind of want for everyone around you to feel anything you should be grateful for. Whereas if I was a white man, I could really you know, demand well, this needs to be done this way and, in that way, and not feel guilty just as a woman and as a Black woman that I’m asking too much.

I don’t know if that’s just being a woman. I don’t know if that’s… I don’t know. You know, I can, I can never really finger point, was it racism? was it sexism? whatever it was. But I think the way I’ve tried to get around it is being very, you know, the only thing you truly have control of within the industry is who you work with and what team is around you.

So, I think it’s really trying to get as many people that are empathetic to what you may be going through, whether they’re white or Black, and building a team with that understanding and consciousness.

Nadine 14:44
Oh, gosh, I really agree with you, Emeli. I just think, you know, that it’s there, whether we like it or not. And it’s very covert as well. It’s not overt. So as Emeli was saying, it’s so subtle and you know, and especially since Black Lives Matter, my whole thing has been just to have uncomfortable conversations, if I see it, because normally I would have let those conversations go and just to make a mental note.

But now I lovingly and gently question and challenge and also make it a question that is peace that comes from pro-peace and not anti anything. You know, so it invites people into a conversation with me that doesn’t bring about defensiveness. And I think that’s really important for our industry to think of race and allyship about how we really work together in that way.

And I really had to look up my part in it as well. So, what had I bypassed to kind of feel more comfortable and really come out of that space and make myself really uncomfortable. And I, at the end of the day, I think I’m looking at humanity and I wish to meet a person as a person. And that’s got to be my first point of call.

Brenda 16:02
That’s really interesting. And speaking of uncomfortable conversations, because I’m surprised I’m even having to bring this up, because, about the intersectionality of being a Black woman, and like as we record this podcast, only recently, I think it was this weekend, I read that, it hit the headlines that Dame Kelly Holmes had recently said that she feels that she can now finally breathe because she’s come out and confirmed that she’s gay. And that she was reluctant before because of all the negativity, that the response she felt she was going to get for being authentically who she is.

And I can’t believe we’re in 2022 and one of our most successful athletes in the UK has felt that she’s had to hide that part of herself. Now, Emeli, I know you made the decision recently to come out and Nadine you’ve just married, you got married recently to your wife. Tell me how it’s been for you both.

Emeli 16:50
You know, making the announcement that I was with my partner felt so natural, you know, I never felt like I needed to make a statement or kind of share anything. I never felt the pressure to share anything because it was only till I fell in love where I just felt I wanted to share, this is the most amazing thing that’s ever happened to me.

Yes, she’s a woman. But more about it being we’re in love. And I’ve always wanted to be, to follow my heart through everything. I try to do that through our music and my life, so it was really incredible, the response and, you know, the acceptance and love that that kind of post received. And I think often it’s, it’s through your experiences, you create mental blocks within you. And I think, yes, half of it is society. We have a long way to go until, you know, love is truly accepted. But I think half of it, or if not 30% of it is within your mind. If you have had experiences in childhood where you felt you couldn’t be yourself, or you just see how society works and how dangerous it is in many places for people in same sex relationships.

So, it’s, I can definitely, I feel so happy for Dane Kelly, just to see her joy and the feeling of being yourself and not having to hide anything is really, truly liberating.

Nadine 18:07
Yeah, I agree with you as well. Again, Emeli, I mean, I think for, for myself, I got severely, severely bullied. And when I was in primary school and in secondary school for being gay. So, for me, my fear came out of, well, if this is how I’m going to get treated at this point in my life, how is it going to be for the rest of my life.

Scary? You know, it was really, really scary. And also, you know, there is that thing of being pinpointed. But you can’t play, you know, you can’t play a lead if you’re a lesbian. You know, at that time when I was first coming up, you know, so there was a lot of fear for me around being accepted. Now, just like Emeli just said, I’m so in love, with, you know, my wife is you know, she’s, she’s a, she’s, she’s a gardener.

She’s like, salt of the earth. he like, she deals with the land, very centred, very calm and, you know, just supports me in all that I do. And wishes me to be the best that I can be. But I’m not gonna. For me, I’m not. I can’t possibly downsize how afraid I was. I was petrified. I was terrified. And I did come out initially. And then I went back in and I married a man and, you know, and I had a completely different experience. And, you know, and then I realised that this just wasn’t the right frequency for me. And so, my, I suppose for me it’s all been about coming into myself rather than coming out to the public. Coming into myself, being settled in myself, recognising that I’m born this way, this is how I am.

It doesn’t make me any different from anybody else, if we’re going to go straight into humanity and to celebrate and champion the fact that this is the part of me that I’m here to share, to share. And when we talk about intersectionality, I’m gay, I’m neurodiverse. You know, I come ,I come from a really, you know, poverty background.

You know, I didn’t go to university, you know, you know, I’ve got a disability. There’s loads of stuff for me that really comes into intersectionality. My colour, I’m a woman. Thing is, is that we could go on forever. But as Emeli has just said and I think it’s really important that we highlight this, you know, we are in charge. We’re not in control because none of us are in control, but we are in charge.

And it is down to us to be responsible and to be accountable to our own behaviours and to our own thoughts. I know that’s not easy all the time and I’m not going to downplay anybody who’s challenged at this point and moment. But what I do know from all the coaching and everything that I’ve done is that it is the way we think and not just the way we think, it’s the words that we use also. So, we have to be really mindful of how we’re speaking to ourselves and what we really think about ourselves in the world.

Brenda 21:05
So that said, what would you, if you, if you were speaking to your younger selves and to young women looking at you with awe, because that’s not all they can do about their careers in music. What advice would you both give? How would you tell them to do things differently? Or would you?

Nadine 21:19
Just for them to think about who’s your team? Who’s that person that you can call up at 3 a.m. in the morning and say, this is not going, okay? Who is that person that when you’re feeling a little bit wobbly, you bust yourself with and say, I’m having this, not very good thinking, can you put me on the right road again?

You know, but also the team around you that’s championing you, that celebrates you, that you can go out and have fun with because we so forget to have fun.

We’re so serious about what we need to do and doing the art really well, and being creative, you know, that we forget to just have this what I call rest and restore time and that’s just as important as the work time. So yeah, I would, I would really, I would really, you know, kind of invite the younger generation to be inside your heart more and to live from your heart.

Because I think when we really live from our heart, that’s where our dreams are really found and made into reality.

Brenda 22:20
Now, I know both of you never forget how to have fun. I’ve seen you both have fun. And thank God for that. I have some fond memories of of having fun with you two. You know, it’s easy to be moved by other people’s definition of success, but you have a voice coming out your ears. Both of your mantelpieces full. But how do you personally define your success? What does the success mean to you both?

Emeli 22:48
I mean, I’m going to sound very cliché here, but it truly is happiness. You know, you search for everything, you think as soon as I get that award, I’ll be happy. And as soon as I get this album to do what I want, I’ll be happy then. And then you get there, and you realise that it’s just insatiable. It’s just keeps, this longing to find that place where you’ll finally be content and I think, yeah, happiness.

And I do feel that, you know, being in love just feels fantastic. And I feel like once you’ve been on the right path and like you’re saying, Nadine, there, that you let your heart lead you. I think that’s the only time you’ll, you’ll get where your heart’s supposed to get. So, I think happiness and, and love, you know, that’s what now finally, at this age, I realise that’s what success is.

Nadine 23:29
And I think for me success is really about finding peace and some days peace for me is literally, I need to rest for the day, and I need to stay in bed and watch Netflix. So, I think I have different forms of success for me. And yeah, I think it’s important to recognise that you have 24 hours and I’m speaking like this because I’m 22 years in recovery.

I’m a recovering alcoholic, I’m in recovery from alcoholism for 22 years, I’m sober 22 years and if there’s anything that I’ve learnt is at the beginning I had to take it sometimes 10 minutes at a time in my day when I started and now I just, I live into the 24 hours and I think that’s been the most interesting part.

And if I can find peace in that 24 hours and for me that also includes love, then I’m the happiest person in the world.

Brenda 24:21
So, I ask you instinctively to tell me the most memorable moment of your career. What comes to mind immediately?

Emeli 24:27
Oh, yeah, I would say the Olympics, just because it was such a, such an event and I went through a lot of emotions to get on that stage. And I felt proud to represent. Yes, I’m a Black woman. Yes, I’m you know, I’ve grown in Scotland. I’ve been here. Just the things I’ve loved being, you know, growing up in the UK. Yes. It’s not perfect, we’ve a long way to go, but I do feel lucky to be in a place where there’s still room for expression.

Nadine 24:55
Yeah, I suppose, performing at three of the most amazing opera houses: Royal Opera House, Glyndebourne and English National Opera. Like all those three, as a soloist, that was like one of my dreams. My next dream is the MET so that I’m coming after that next. But, but also what we did recently actually with Emeli and Mica, Mica Paris.

I mean, you know, we were on Commonwealth Day, we were at Westminster Abbey, and we were singing in front of the royal family, and just hearing these women. And I, you know, I’ve, you know, I’ve met Emeli online, but I’d never, oh, I’ve met you once face to face hadn’t I. But just to be with two iconic women who I love and admire and respect, for me, I just felt like I was in such amazing company. It really reminded me why I do what I do.

Brenda 25:41
That’s brought goosebumps to me. Because I just know what that was like, I just know. You know what, this has been a truly special conversations for me. And I knew it would, I had no doubt this is going to be brilliant, but I want to do one of my favourite parts of the programme, which is when we play Pass the Baton, and I’m going to ask you to tell me who has inspired you. It could be someone from the past or someone currently you think it’s worth our audiences knowing about.

Emeli 26:05
I mean, I have to say, you know, it’s hearing that story, Misha Paris. She’s an incredible woman and I’ve only really gotten to know her. I mean, at that show was the first time we were in a dressing room together. So, we started to get talking and she was just giving me hours of advice. She’s like, and to have, you know, a woman who’s had so much success, a Black woman passing down that wisdom, there’s no better source of wisdom to be had. So, I just and she’s so fun and she just has this energy and passion for life. So, she’s definitely inspired me all the time.

Nadine 26:38
Absolutely. I mean, I’m going to agree with Emeli there as well and I really meant what I said, like the both of them just together in one space, us talking to each other, singing. It was just that was just magical. And I’d seen both of their careers in the past, but also yourself, Brenda. People normally do this to me but I never thought I would be in the position to do it to someone else. But it’s true. Like you have been somebody who’s been on the BBC, you know, I know you’re not there anymore, but you’ve been on the BBC. You’ve been a face that we recognise internationally, not just, you know, nationally and internationally all over the world as this broadcast of really successful, so knowledgeable, so intelligent, crossing all boundaries like every single one of them.

And for me that was really important because I felt as an opera singer that was important, that was there, but that the path I wish to take to cross internationally, globally. You know, to see someone walking into all these different worlds for me was really, really important to have in front of me. So, thank you for that fact that I really mean that.

Brenda 27:41
Let me say to the audience, I have not paid her to say that. And I now have a tear in my eye.

Thank you both so, so much. We’ve come to the end. So, I just want to say, this has been a brilliant, cosy, creative conversation. We end the programme with a specially commissioned, spoken word contribution by a flow poet inspired by our music theme. A big thank you to Floacist Natalie Stewart from the FLO Spoken Word Vortex for sourcing these amazing spoken word artists for us.

This poem is called Music is a Poem by Al-Khemi.

Enjoy everyone and thank you for listening to Kiss My Black Side Brought to You by Sadler’s Wells, Ciao for now.

[Music] 28:20

POEM
Al-Khemi 28:30

Music is Poetry
Growing like the seeds
Planted by my ancestree

Close your eyes and see
Just how it moves me
The right keys
Open up hearts
Like surgery

Music is medicine
It’s influence is second to none
Instrumental in the healing of the nation
When it hits you, feel no pain!

Just rocking and rolling
Bodies quivering
Serotonin flowing like a river
Filling limp limbs with rhythm
Beating the drums of rebellion
Together we are strong
Never Alone

Music is the finest Art
The world’s greatest musician
Curated creation
Through that we can all find freedom
The most high is the best composer
That’s why you’re dancing with no composure

Invested in the richness
Floating away on the vibrations
Moved
By the melodies
Moving
In Harmony
We are moved
We are
Muses
Music

[MUSIC] 29:49

Brenda 29:51
Kiss My Black Side is a Sadler’s Wells production.